Fermented Seaweed Recipe, IMO3 vs IMO4, Aluminum-Locked Phosphorus
The farm hasn't seen rain in three weeks. Drake is hauling water by truck for the cows and pigs while a weeklong international training class just wrapped, with seven students from around the world, including Pedro and Ben. They chip fallen trees, mix in sugarcane stalks and IMO4, and talk about how modern farming evaporates far more water than a forest does, a point from carbon researcher Mark Cohen that ties into Ernst Götsch's syntropic and desert farming work.
Most of the hour covers fermenting seaweed. Coat fresh seaweed in sugar, pack it tight in a jar, let it sit five days, then pour off the juice and dilute it 1 to 500, about 4 to 8 ml per gallon. Dried seaweed works too if you rehydrate it with a splash of beer first. Pedro and Ben explain that a fermented plant extract (FPE) pulls more out of a plant than juice does, hormones, enzymes, and gibberellin, the growth compound first identified from a soil fungus. Someone also asks about reusing water from hard-boiled eggs for calcium extraction; Drake says to toast the shells longer to dry them out first.
Pedro walks through the ten principles of syntropic farming, humility toward nature, maximizing photosynthesis, diversity, density, cooperation, abundance, and stratification among them, all drawn from watching how a forest layers itself. On the farm, six barrels of fish covered with IMO has turned one pasture green while the rest goes yellow in the drought.
The back half compares IMO3 and IMO4 from the week's class. IMO3 is light, smells like bread, and cools fast, while IMO4, mixed with clay soil, runs denser and held near 130 degrees, needing repeated turning to catch hidden hot spots. Late in the show, Drake and Pedro talk about ferns as a soil indicator, they thrive where aluminum is high, which locks out phosphorus, and explain how KNF inputs and worm castings free it back up.
Questions answered
- 7:40 What's happening with the drought at the farm? — It hasn't rained in about three weeks, so Drake is hauling water by truck to the pigs and cows.
- 24:40 Alvin K asks for the fermented seaweed recipe — Coat seaweed in sugar, pack it in a jar for five days, strain the juice, and dilute it 1 to 500, about 4 to 8 ml per gallon.
- 28:38 Can you use dried seaweed instead of fresh? — Yes, rehydrate dried seaweed with a splash of beer or vodka before fermenting it with sugar, same as dried herbs.
- 30:10 Do you need to add LAB (lactic acid bacteria) to ferment plant material? — No, LAB is already everywhere, so sugar alone osmotically draws out the juice and starts fermentation.
- 31:44 What's the difference between FPE and FPJ? — FPE pulls out more than plant juice, hormones, enzymes, and compounds like gibberellin, not just NPK.
- 33:55 Does saved eggshell-boiling water work for calcium extraction? — Save the water for plants, but toast the shells longer than usual to dry them out before making the vinegar extract.
- 35:53 What permaculture resources pair well with KNF? — Bill Mollison's book, Dave Jacke's agroforestry work, Allan Savory's holistic management, and Ernst Götsch's syntropic farming.
- 42:50 What are the ten principles of syntropic farming? — Humility toward nature, maximizing photosynthesis, diversity, density, cooperation, abundance, and stratification, all modeled on a forest.
- 46:52 Do seashells break down for calcium or chitin like eggshells? — Not sure, try an oyster shell flour, and some seashells may carry a little chitin from mixed-in crab shells.
- 53:26 What's the difference between IMO3 and IMO4? — IMO3 propagates the microbes and smells like bready yeast; IMO4 activates them into soil, runs denser, hotter, and smells earthier.
- 58:00 How often did you turn the IMO3 and IMO4 piles? — IMO3 was turned three to four times a day since it cools fast; the denser IMO4 held near 130 degrees and needed repeated turning to find hidden hot spots.
- 1:05:19 What does it mean when ferns grow in the soil? — Ferns tend to show high available aluminum, which locks out phosphorus even when phosphorus is present.
- 1:07:43 How does KNF fix a phosphorus lockout from aluminum? — Fungi and bacteria feed worms, and worm castings' humic and fulvic acids bind the aluminum, freeing the phosphorus back up.
KNF Office Hours is a free live Q&A every Sunday at 9 AM HST. Bring your question to pureknf.org/learn/questions or join live.
In this episode
- 0:00 Countdown & Introduction
- 4:30 I Ching Reading: Darkening of the Light
- 7:40 Weeklong Training Wraps Up; Drought in East Hawaiʻi
- 10:01 Chipping Trees, Sugarcane Stalks, IMO4, Fish
- 10:34 Watering Club; Climate and Evaporation
- 12:29 Master Cho's Open-Source Presentations
- 14:27 Fermenting Seaweed, Microalgae Biofuel, and Kudzu Vine
- 16:53 Fermenting Comfrey, Mugwort, Basil; White Mold
- 19:50 Climate Change, Evaporation, and Syntropic/Desert Farming
- 25:05 Fermented Seaweed Recipe
- 29:03 Making Fermented Seaweed from Dried Seaweed
- 30:55 FPE vs FPJ; Gibberellin and Mycorrhizal Fungi
- 33:55 Eggshells for Water-Soluble Calcium
- 35:53 Permaculture Books and Resources
- 36:54 Regenerative Pasture Management; Fish Waste under IMO4
- 42:50 Ten Principles of Syntropic Farming with Pedro
- 49:06 IMO Process During the 7-Day Training
- 53:26 IMO3 vs IMO4: Differences and Process
- 1:05:10 Plant Indicators; Ferns, Aluminum, and Phosphorus Lockout
- 1:10:18 Bonus Question: Message to the World
Transcript
Auto-transcribed with Whisper. Click any timestamp to play from there.
4:00 Hey, hello, welcome to the KNF Office Hours with me, Dr. Drake. Today, here, January 15th, 2023, and today, our reading is Darkening of the Light. Darkness reigns in the external world now.
4:47 Disengage from negative feelings and maintain your inner light. This is a time when darkness and inferior energies surround you. The image is the vat of the sun completely swallowed by the earth. The only light left is that inside your own heart, and you are counseled to return to it, maintain it, and quietly nourish yourself with it. It is in the dark moments that a correct attitude is most important. If we fight against the darkness, we are swallowed by it and suffer great misfortune. If we react to the lack of visible progress with despair and negativity,
5:37 we extinguish our own inner light and block the aid of the creative. If we try to persuade others that they must return to the light, we exhaust ourselves in vain now. It is time such as this that it is wise to adopt a stance of outer disengagement and inner perseverance. Do not focus on or interact with negative influences around you. This only strengthens their grip on you Step aside, yield, let go Allow people and events to pass without attachment Direct your attention inside to your inner light
6:27 To your devotion to what is right To your conversation with the higher power Progress may be slow but there will indeed be progress. Remember that much of the work of the higher power is hidden from us and that we enable and assist it by remaining detached, accepting, reserved, and reserved in the face of negative influences. yeah so good to see you all here you know winter time out where I guess most of you are maybe not in New Zealand it's summertime for you Willie that's awesome
7:15 yeah aloha everyone so I do have some slides. Pedro's here, and so is Ben. I don't know if they're going to come over for the office hours. But right now on the farm, we just finished up teaching. You know, I did a week-long course. I had seven students here. from all over the world. Good morning, Kansas.
8:01 The IMO4 babies are awesome. Pedro and Ben just turned them. I think they're starting to cool down. But one thing is the farm right now, it hasn't rained for about three weeks or so. and any significant rain. And so right now the barn is out of water. I've been having to water the cows in the field. And so kind of having a little like a drought here where I got to, you know, the plants are starting to wilt. And usually it rains here, you know, all the time we get 280 inches of rain a year. And right now is the wet season as well. But I've seen it a lot
8:55 in winter go like this, where just before this it rained a whole ton, and now it's dry for, you know, three, four weeks in a row. And yeah, so it's pretty wild because we don't run any irrigation here besides what comes down from the, you know, the sky, the rain for us here. So having to move water, having to fill up the water tank up at the pigs. My barn, you know, we just used a lot of water for the class to wash and clean everything. So now the, you know, the pigs are, I need to bring 100 gallons of water up there today from the
9:35 water tank using the truck and all that. So, you know, a little farm update for you guys, focusing on my, you know, inner light there, making, keeping my farm alive if, you know, if things here die, it's no good. And nice to have Pedro here helping out. yesterday we were able to chainsaw a bunch of trees that were leaning over the driveway and then bring them up and chip them and you know I was thinking about when I'm chipping these trees if I also chip in some sugar cane stalks with it and then inoculate it with the IMO4
10:25 and just let those kind of compost out there and kind of in situ maybe put some fish in there and you know really juice these things up you know yeah the watering club yeah Hawaii this is you know I don't know folks talk about climate change and all that I it's actually one of the things I wanted to talk to Pedro about, he was telling me about that agriculture, you know, when we, like 90% of the water is evaporated out of modern agriculture or something like that, whereas in a forest, a lot of the, you know, the water is retained and then put up as rain,
11:11 and then it comes down. I don't know. He was saying something about that's causing more more changes for us than than anything else but um what's up everybody tuning in from all over the world um so anyway yeah we just we just covered um all master chose nine solutions plus um young Song chose disgustingly cheap solutions as well. And now we're pretty well-stocked on the farm. I've got to go around and spray those things, keep the plants alive, especially with this drought and all that.
11:56 And then get the good tractor sprayer going and maybe do that today, get a bunch of water up there. So, I do have... Hey, how's it, West Virginia? I do have this to share and continue on. Does anyone remember where we were? we're at number Master Cho's presentations we went through
12:42 we've been through a lot of this right been through all the soil building these things so if you haven't seen these here what's up West Virginia nutrient cycle that looks awesome what page is that oh we're down here Where are we down here? We finished plant juice. It's good for human. 25% less rain. So is it true where you're at? The world is drying out? You know, is it true?
13:29 Did we talk about fermented seaweed? People always ask me about fermenting seaweed. They always... Hey. Yeah, hey. Hey. Um, I don't want to get settled here. Morning, everyone. Hang on, not yet. So, um, let's see here. So here, here on this, um, hey guys, um, get, get settled behind and make sure that
14:17 you can see yourself in this picture over on this side. You see this one? Make sure you can see yourself over there. But, um, oh, the pooch is here. Hey, Pooch. People always ask about seaweed, right? People ever ask you about seaweed? Yeah. So there's this guy in Brazil making fermented plant extract with seaweed. And also another guy making biofuel with microalgae. so yeah seaweeds they're really interesting because they have a lot of mineral content right a lot of trace minerals they're like one of the things that have most trace nutrients
15:04 seaweeds yeah so do people ever ask you can you ferment seaweed yeah yeah so here in master cho's slides here you see this here it says seaweeds effective for plants growth reinforces fruit color use a light stone to press down on brown seaweed then he lists this latin name because of the the juice brown seaweed can be extracted faster than others and this is in his um his recommendations for um things to ferment right you someone was talking about kudzu yeah it's yeah it's an invasive vine down in the southeast part of the country it like
15:53 completely will cover a whole area of trees killing them all so it's really like grows very fast so very high nitrogen and yeah you could use it to make a plant juice so so this is what he's showing here it says kudzu vine look at look at this stuff just swallowing that up like that it just swallows this fat this thing right oh yeah yeah definitely i've seen it it's like it'll turn like a whole forest into almost a statue but it's just yeah if you've ever if you anybody from the southeast knows what i'm talking about but it's uh just will just grow and grow they brought it over
16:36 to kind of have like as a shade area for their gazebos and whatnot. And it just got completely out of control. And it's taken over complete areas of trees. It says here, when bamboo shoots are soaked too long, white molds may occur through abnormally fast fermentation. We saw that here. can you talk about what we saw with our fermentation? So we fermented some comfrey and some mugwort and basil, but the comfrey fermentation got very wild.
17:25 It had a lot of liquid, and the liquid pushed all the solids, and it burst out of the containers. and we saw some mold as well growing on top of it. It wasn't too much, but there was some white mold. Oh, yeah, I can attest to that. So it just kind of... Oh. Yeah. I can jump into it. Yeah. You're good at this. You're very seasoned. so but uh yeah we uh went up to did all this with his mom she was very nice and uh humble and homing the yeah so and then but yeah the the mugwort was a little bit the basil just the smell
18:15 alone you could literally take that and drizzle it on any of your pastas and be just absolutely delicious so but uh but the comfrey yeah just so juicy just completely exploded out of the jars or bubbled over out of the jars. And yeah, I could probably see the same thing happen if I were to go back and get some of that kudzu vine and do that as far as the growth. Yeah, we had some white mold on some of our ferments, right? And then we also had one where the comfrey exploded out through the top and just burst over, right?
18:55 and then the basil and the dropwort all those were pretty solid throughout our our thing and yeah hey hey thank you guys hey it's britney oh cool cool hey hey britney i didn't know that was her name louisiana raging cajun for expansion of all organisms so um yeah so i was just going through this a little bit um one thing i wanted to talk about past these so you just so you can hear like what the what the difference is of just when you like if you put those on if you talk when i talk into it first i talk away from it and i talk into it
19:41 that shows you what folks can hear on this end so if you understand like you know anyway so um So I wanted to talk a little bit with Pedro and Ben about this, of this idea of drought right now. But also you were saying climate change through farming and evaporation. Can you talk to that? So I was listening to this talk from this guy called Mark Cohen, and he's like a carbon specialist. And he was talking about how we think or what we are told that climate change is because of burning fossil fuels.
20:34 and what he says is that modern agriculture it evaporates like 90 percent of the water it uses because it doesn't cover the soil and um so when you increase or reduce the carbon concentration in the soil by one percent if you increase one percent you get 144 000 liters of water that's like infiltrated in the soil. It's like the retention capacity for infiltration in the soil. And if you reduce 1%, then you got 144,000 liters less of water infiltration. So if we don't cover the soil with carbon,
21:23 first we get evaporation, loads of evaporation. operation and so he says that water has three times more potential of heating up than any other greenhouse gas and we also get drainage from the continents so he says like the sea levels rising it's not because what the only the ice cap is melting because of climate change we're also like draining the continents and and so our um yeah our our underwater uh rivers that like um birth the springs and everything they're just like going like really dry and this is like aquifers
22:08 yeah the aquifers and and this affects evaporation because um trees have less water to work with so it's all like a snowball effect where we don't cover the soil water evaporates that heats up the atmosphere and yeah it's going pretty crazy so then there's this this book here it's in Portuguese but also Urnscotch as a way of like really I think this is like a solution to keep moisture in the ground and to
22:55 pump your soil full. You know you guys you were here you got to feel the living soil. What can you tell me about that? I mean compared to where I live in Arizona it's just totally different just the color the texture the activity we've microscoped some stuff so yeah it's just totally different and just to see like what's above the ground what the ground below is producing above is just pretty amazing and then the ways to kind of control everything so yeah it's very amazing
23:38 Have you seen any successful desert systems where, like I know there's that one guy that planted a desert in Israel or something, but Jeff Lawton I think was his name. I'm not familiar with him. I'm not going to say it's completely dry. We have very successful gardeners down there in Arizona. So it's not to say that it's not impossible. We have a very good season. you know but um uh yeah we've got like a worm farm down there that does amazing things um i've even got a shirt for a lady that has her own web channel she does amazing things so
24:20 um yeah exactly say 48 growing in the garden actually so i'm going to check her out so she does very good things so for like all sorts of things raised beds and my goal is to plant a bunch of trees like they said the worm farm has this food for us that's like amazing so yeah and then like trying to duplicate that in your backyard and uh being able to like instead of just plant a tree and have it die in the ground i'm trying to like i guess make it produce and duplicate what i see out here Oh, hey, so Alvin K. wants the fermented seaweed recipe.
25:10 So with this information here, can you guys make a recommendation for him to do a fermented seaweed thing? We're not just, we can discuss it, but here it is. I mean, it's just under that. the recipe was basically you know this here it says what to collect but the process or no this is the principles where's the process it's just like kimchi you guys can explain the process all right what are you gonna do you're gonna so you're basically We're going to take the seaweed, put it in a bowl, sprinkle with some sugar, and start mixing it. And adjust the sugar.
25:57 You want to get all the surface coated with sugar, but not too much sugar. And then once all the material is coated with sugar, you put it in a jar, compress it to get all that air space, the oxygen out. and yeah uh put a a paper cover uh with a string or an elastic band let it ferment for for about five days and then you're gonna pour it uh by gravity you don't want to squeeze all the crap out just the juice so you can leave it for about like two or three hours
26:42 to like really get all the juice and then the solids you can further ferment with water to get vinegar or you can throw it in your compost and then you're going to use it 1 to 500 so that's 2 ml per liter or per gallon what's your usage per gallon? 1 to 500 Yeah. How many mLs per gallon? Four? Oh. Yeah, four. All right, guys. Four or eight. Four or eight. Four or eight, yeah. Basically, four milliliters or eight.
27:29 But you can always get the calculator out. Yeah, exactly. KNF calculator. Yeah. So, yeah, that's the basic thing. And we went over that, right? And there's so many nuances. We saw so much difference between so many plants. Do you think with seaweed, you know, it's so moist, would you kind of squeeze out a little bit of the seawater maybe to start when I first get it to like put a rock on top to let it like sit? And then like instead of trying to like super compress it, just like let a rock sit on top of maybe like something like this in this picture here, like where you could put the seaweed in
28:08 and like put a rock on top and let it drain the water seawater out and then ferment the seaweed seaweed which then mix it with sugar at this step here you know like this to go through and then later drain off what came out of this seaweed and the sugar out right so it's like a two two draining step for seaweed maybe i would think if i if i did it that's how i'd do it i mean it makes sense right i was gonna add to that but instead of having a rock just gravity feed like with this after the end but then to start depending on that moisture content still of the seaweed
28:44 you you don't want to overuse of sugar you know because then you're just wasting sugar so you'd probably use a little bit less sugar and just start off small and believe me it'll a little goes a long way especially if it's a wet material like that uh do you think you would be able to use dried seaweed as well if you don't have access to the ocean and you get like good dried seaweed just like hydrated with some beer like the origin yeah exactly exactly that's like yeah just like we do with the dried herbs just throw a little beer in there some some heineken some
29:25 green bottles only yeah vodka shots yeah man you're a wild man you're a wild man yeah i gotta to buy extra vodka and Ben's taking the class. Alvin K is asking if you need a bacteria source like LABs to feed on the sugars. Hey post up. Aloha. Wait, who's asking what? Alvin K. He needs the super chats and stuff. Thanks everyone for the super chats. That's amazing. Do we need a bacteria source LABs to feed. Here's my super chat. You want to? Yeah, super chat.
30:10 My super chat. Yeah. We got to go buy water. Get some water. We got to get the best gas to bring. Gas money to get the water up to the... The right answer right here. It looks like a little heart. It's a Korean heart. The pigs need water. The new... No, I mean... Yeah, the pigs need water, man. Come on. So fun water for the pigs fundraising challenge. We got to do that today. Otherwise, yeah, I don't know. We can maybe pump it out of the river, figure something out. It's going to be wild. Okay, so you guys want to answer some of the questions here?
30:56 What do we got? Some of the questions were Alvin was asking something about bacteria He's basically talking about fermented plant extract He just doesn't, maybe he doesn't want to buy the book He wants to just ask us all the questions Alvin, buy the book The answer's in there We'll help you after that Eat on the sugars Let's just see, we just Yeah, no, if you're making a fermented plant juice if you're making a fermented plant juice it it should i mean the labs will already be on it every labs are everywhere so you just cover it with a little bit of sugar and it'll just
31:38 osmotically just release everything and i would say even if like he's asking if you had dried materials if you had a whole bunch of kelp mill like he said rehydrate it with some beer you know and then kind of drain that beer off and then you could do that osmotically and just depending on the moisture just still little sugar goes a long way what else do we got I think it's the idea of FPEs are very interesting to fermented plant extracts but from what I understand you can't consider them FPJs right it's like a different type of extraction yeah it's not like you're
32:25 extracting the blood of the plant you're extracting some other substances and the the lactobacillus are also going to the hormones and the enzymes and and yeah yeah in your in your plant extraction right you get you get more than just the plant materials more than the npk it's like these intact plant compounds like we it was saying like uh jabrilins right yeah and do you know about jibrillins at all so i was reading about this the other day the first guy that um recognized jibrillins was some a japanese master and he found this substance
33:11 produced by fungus by fungi and they helped the seeds grow it was like the initial like fuel for seeds to sprout which is like gibberlin so when you get gibberlin in the soil the seeds like really sprout a lot better and you have certain mycorrhiza and fungi that produce this substance I mean my understanding is it's also in some of the fermented plant juices if you ferment the right plant you can get a lot of this gibberlin yeah oh i'm sorry i'm like kind of on this egg show question oh yeah so whenever like you guys were
33:56 done i was gonna answer that so i wouldn't say it would be a difference um i would definitely whatever that the water you're using to boil those eggs don't just waste it save it put it on your plants you know there still might be a little bit of something enzymes or something in that but But once you save them, you'd probably want to toast them a lot longer than normal dry ones. And, yeah, just put them in the pan, toast them, and at a low heat, let all that water that's maybe kind of soaked into the shell evaporate. And then get all the membranes you can.
34:34 Cook all the membranes away and fan them away. And then you could still, yeah, put them in the vinegar. and I mean if anything you might have a weaker a little bit slightly weaker w like uh well yeah then solution but give it a try I would say it wouldn't be a difference I'll let Drake agree or disagree with what I said or Ben's the master now what Ben says is like under a master show and And, you know, he has a really good understanding of the why, I think, of a lot of these things. And so he's coming from that experience of like what he's learned here.
35:16 And so I think that's, yeah, what you said was very legit of like, you know, people ask all these questions of different ways of preparing certain things. And you understand. Save some deviled eggs for me. Yeah, yeah. another reason to crack more eggs and get the eggshells and get all those and make them right so yeah you guys want to answer another question? Weston mentioned permaculture pairs with K&F yeah you got Bill Mollison's book, you got Dave Ogram's
36:04 also his work i mean they wrote the book together but dave algram's still alive and he's got some really good stuff going on with um permaculture and i think yeah there are many uh like paths on the regenerative agriculture side you got um holistic management from alan savory and there is also the agroforestry from Ernst Götz. I think we're way past the point of choosing what we kind of like or don't like. We should just use the whole bunch because the earth really needs it and our soils too. So if it's
36:49 regenerative, throw it in there. Throw some mushrooms. And here on this in this case on the farm the other day what you know i'm kind of trying to practice this regenerative pasture livestock rotational management and so we when um we dropped what you know six barrels 30 gallons of fish and then covered it with imos and the result of that is you know you you can witness the change in my pasture right oh yeah yeah even your cows neighbors are looking at your pasture like yeah that's some yum yum grass
37:40 yeah yeah they definitely they definitely got a whenever we moved or he moves the cows over you know they'll definitely have some green grass like you just see even he was talking about that even with the drought drought here you know as they call it the three weeks of no rain but you see a significant difference in grass yellowish like starting to turn shorter but right near where he's placed all these like fish heads and stuff and piles and everything and it's just green you know chest high grass and like he says like the cows are just looking at it with envy like so
38:25 oh and one of the things that you can observe as well is that in his pasture you get like this big clumps of grass that the cows won't eat because they eat their favorite grasses first right and if they have access to everything they're only going to eat their favorite grass and they're gonna leave the rest and in your pasture you don't see that the cows eat like it's a much more homogenous uh thing they eat everything because they only have access to that one space right and i think in general like and in the big picture that um it's game changing that uh
39:06 they can manage the whole thing and not leave anything like just aging up or because we have in agroforestry we have this term called senescence which is like when plants they they come to the end of the cycle they start giving out like these old old growth hormones that says that the plant is at the end of the cycle. And it also changes the exudates they send in the soil. So when they're trying to grow, they send some exudates to bring like this, some growth hormones and microorganisms that are going to tune that. And when they are old, they send other exudates to like decomposers
39:55 decomposers and root feeders that are going to end that life cycle even more efficiently because it's all about like the plants and the soil have this tune all the time so the soil is helping the plant the plant is helping the soils the microorganisms in the soil and so this information that plants um start sending out these these hormones uh they get up they they pass that information to all the system and all the plants get this like senescence information of uh yeah just old so when you have so when we in agroforestry we prune the
40:40 the trees all the time it's not about only getting mulch to the soil it's getting these growth hormones constantly sprouting and and and sending that to the whole systems like yeah let's grow together we got growth hormones pumping and pumping and pumping and and then you get lots of mulch as well and that's what we did yesterday too we made like ramule mulch from all these little shrubberies that we cut and then got you know and then we we didn't put imo in that pile but we could have we should you know and even a fish source under that but uh you know working together
41:29 like building the pastures up and then building the sugar cane and banana plant that shop you know and then around there when it gets nice and fertile plant in more ava and have that so it's you know i have multi-story and every every so often what i want to transform the farm to have is kind of these uh you know he probably talks about it in this book i can't uh it's in um portuguese but but i you know but but i'm sure he talks about you know kind of key line putting tree rows i'm sure it would be a suggestion it would be in alignment with these principles that
42:07 you talked about maximizing sunlight maximizing you know all these uh you know there's there were 10 principles you talked about that are you know basically like if you're not doing these 10 principles you're probably having a harder time regenerating the earth than if you just followed these 10 principles um you know i'm sure i'm sure there are other systems out there besides just um this year of how to accomplish what we're doing, right? But those principles you talked about, do you... They're like general principles, I think.
42:54 And the interesting part is that it's only about mimicking nature and observation. So if you look at a forest, it has all those 10 principles happening all the time, right? So first it's coming down from the pedestal, acknowledging that we are not the most intelligent species, but that we are part of an intelligent system and that we have to work with symbiosis. Like all species, we think about competition and it's all about cooperation, right? So yeah, coming down from the pedestal and just having some humbleness that we're not the most intelligent guys.
43:45 And we need to learn from nature because we are part of nature. And the second one is maximizing photosynthesis. So how to harvest sunlight better? because we have many stories and layers in the forest and each plant likes sunlight in different levels. So we generally think, oh, this plant, all plants like sunlight in the same way, but some like more the shade, others like more sunlight, and you can have up to 16 layers in the forest. So you have the third principle, which is diversity.
44:34 We generally, when we got problems, either it's in raising animals or trees. When you lose diversity, things like start to complicate because you have less of a genetic, that the genomes, they start to become less diverse, and that brings a whole lot of problems. So then you have density, which is like when nature, it throws like a tree, throws seeds. It doesn't throw like one or two. It throws hundreds and thousands of seeds. So you need density as well as diversity, not monoculture.
45:19 like one species and not like having um too much of or just like a lot of species but no uh density you need both principles when they work together and then we got operation which is yeah understanding that we are working in a community and a whole ecosystem and then we have um well i can't remember all of those by head uh abundance is the principle so when you're following all these principles you you have abundance in the end uh lots of food for everybody
46:06 and for all the animals and and for the fungi in the soil and the bacteria everybody's happy we got stratification which is um all the layers in the forest so when you have a stratified forest everybody's in their own level or layer that they really like to uh enjoy so So yeah, I don't know if I mentioned All the ten principles But I can Send Drake a sheet And he'll post that In the community Yeah, and The most important part is to grow good Valuable things like coffee in the understory Yeah, for sure And cacao
46:52 Get your biotechs on point You know, so that way your tree roots Don't get cupped in the soil and all that if you're in Brazil look go Pedro teach you a lot I had like some letter I was looking at some of these more questions thank you Willy rock on one master to another so I'm not sure about breakdown of seashells I mean I know you can try an oyster shell flower and that could work out so i mean i'm certain maybe some seashells maybe have a little bit of chitin with because you know with the crab shells and stuff like that
47:41 so i'm not sure about don't really i mean i don't live near the ocean but so i don't have access to many seashells so um let's see we got daniel in the room oh man i want to be like you when i grow So, um, what's we got? Daniel Ishmael Forest Farming is Daniel Yeah Your neighbor Aloha Aloha Daniel Yeah, so one good thing is, you know, here in the you know this office hour a bunch of students have taken the class now and I'm tuning in and helping each
48:33 other kind of in this session of getting to know each other it's pretty pretty awesome to see um you know sometimes Thomas is here from Florida and he has different advice and like you know someone that's like um you've taken this class you kind of know more about why's and things and you're a little more wise that's kind of funny i know weird play until i big you guys up or anything but it's it's nice that um you know i feel like you guys going out now to be teachers and instructors after being here and learning and you know just doing it yourself
49:16 and really like the quality of the imo pile that you guys turned and everything so you want to talk a little bit about that process over the week and three to four all this okay so first thing we did we we started with you know we kind of did it was just like almost like a pole fiction sort of setup we started one step forward and then worked our way backwards obviously you know because taking our imo you know collection box takes a few days so we're able to kind of get that set up but then to make had previous imo2s already uh mixed them with uh
49:56 some you know our substrate uh got it all mixed up you know let it sit let it heat then just we weren't alone we had a whole you know seven other people shout out to britney heather uh dan dan and oh dan and daniel sorry to make it sound weird but shea and who else do we have britney and leah leah shout out to leah so and then uh so we went up there turned everything um on multiple times yeah who can forget suz and but yeah just a complete process of getting it done and then um yeah just seeing it like feeling it you know not just like seeing temperatures because you know
50:42 temperature your thermometer can never you can never trust the thermometer but getting your hand in there you know by your touch and the feel to what what you're feeling for so uh thank you for me the most important thing was like tuning taste buds and and smell uh because when when we do it uh we know we we can see the results and it smells good or bad but But being here, I could see what Drake was doing and just like, yeah, get the taste buds adjusted. So now I go back home and it's like, yeah, now I know what it should taste like and what it should smell like.
51:29 So that was, yeah, pretty cool. Making the IMO3 file was awesome. Very active file. We used horse feed, which I never used before. and I really like the result of it and yeah active pile the IMO 4 was like going crazy 130 degrees and yesterday night we spread it thinner and today in the morning it was kind of cool so I don't know if we killed the pile or we we piled it a little higher this morning to see if it reacts again yeah because it was very strange last night the past two nights it's been like even in the
52:17 morning you get up there it's just steam pouring off and you crazy we're you know tropical weather but literally the steam just coming off this pile and even last night to see it and we're like try not to let it overcook you know so it's like layered it or we flipped it but then didn't even stack it too high or too low you know it's kind of even keel with what we had done previously and so we're kind of oh no did we did we fuck up did we fuck or did we mess up did we mess up don't want you to get like fined or anything and stuff so you know for my stupidity uh
52:57 grid is asking how thin it was like um what 10 15 centimeters tall about yeah i would say i mean uh damn metric and system and conversion so uh the it was probably about good four to five six inches high you know six or seven inches high probably you know Ashaka high Ashaka high So can you speak to the difference between the IMO3 where we are propagating the microbes and the IMO4 when we're activating them to the soil
53:42 can you speak to the difference of that The IMO3 was very just kind of warm and then once we mixed in like the soil from you know went into the banana little patch and got some soil and then some actual clay a little bit of clay like dirt that still had a decent amount of moisture in it just once you mix that like that's where i guess all that steam started to accumulate and just uh it accumulated and then uh kind of just rose from there but very kind of similar just but active like I guess what he's saying is IMO 3 kind of gradually heated up but that IMO 4 just took off like a wildfire
54:28 bye Daniel see you later man I hope we got to meet before we leave yes sir we'll come see ya um IMO 4 is way denser right it's more heavy and the im03s are like a very light pile also the smell is very different like im03 smells like bread like beer spaint grains and im04 is um yeah well it's got the soil so it has a earthy smell to it but also more moldy like uh yeah you're like if you already got a
55:18 lots of fungi in there as of im03 it's not smells much more like yeast than fungi i mean at the end of im03 you get like this moldy smell already right because you know all the fungi are are growing in the pile one thing is we didn't 100% finish out our IMO 3 either we kind of went a little bit early before it completely finished out yeah and to me it's the pile the IMO 4 smelled kind of fishy I don't know if that's from the ammonia it's releasing or just because we added fuel or we had some barn cats might have thought it was a litter
56:05 box so keep your barn cats away from your IMO pile you know so but they're sweet kitties they're doing a good job up there with the mice so they do a good deed but our IMO pile might have you know had a little compromise from them so Karen you kitty but yeah you definitely get a different smell you that brewer's yeast of the IMO three just like almost like you just finished you walked into a brewery or something so it's just that very like bready bread smell uh and then here you just get kind of a more of a just uh just that soil smell i mean if you like smelt it up to when
56:45 you're standing there if you're far away if you get a really pungent ammonia or something smell then you'll kind of want to be be somewhere like aware but it's only when you get your nose right up into it you know but it's just that got that almost a fertile smell to it and texture to it so but yeah you just got to be careful it just shot up in heat and if you're not careful and not hiding not to say it didn't get wasn't warm here it cooled down pretty decently got chilly at night so it's it's uh definitely like very very volatile when it's in that stage
57:19 so what what was the uh what was the difference in the heat profile like turning frequency you guys have been turning oh yeah we had to turn it very frequently kind of more air more air aeration into it because i think because of that clay likes uh texture and it had like still had some moisture in it so trying to get it to break up and get all of the soil to be air completely aerated and kind of get some of that whiff some of that steam and moisture out of it so it doesn't get kind of locked in there and build like a hot spot
57:55 so and then you did have like once you had like once it started to get hot you had like you you were literally hot spots you would fill it put your thermometer it'd be cool but then you put your hand over here it'd be oh my god this is warm and so you really have to kind of like get it fully turned and fully flipped and not just go assume that oh i did a good job and it's but get your hand in there and feel kind of all around because you'll have kind of multiple different hot spots and multiple different cool spots um i don't know if it's only my perception
58:28 but i um i feel like the im03 since it's a lighter material it heats up faster and they don't have like that um it's not very hard for them to heat it up so we kind of like in general we turned it more the im03 pile it's like that it had to be three or four times a day and um sometimes we even turned it twice but the im04 since it's a denser material and it probably the soil holds more this heat it's harder to cool to cool it down it like the temperatures um it holds more right uh and the imo3 so light you just turn it and
59:20 it cools off like pretty fast it's like easy to to keep it under the 120 and the imo4 i don't know we got temperatures like 130 and even after turning it one time it would still be like steaming hot yeah so we we actually while we were turning it we turned it multiple times right went went to the pile and said we turned it from one place to the other waited a few minutes i stuck my hand kind of deep into the pile there and just kind of waited for a minute or two and it became so hot that like i you know i wanted to get my hand out and i'm like
1:00:03 okay well why would I walk away from this pile right now when it's already so hot in this core of my hand doesn't want to stay in here versus turning it again so it's like a it's like a hot tub like a like a warm hot tub you know not where it's like completely cooled off but like turning it so it's like okay I got some relief again versus you know after I'm done turning it i put my hand in it's like still burning my fingertips i'm like okay well why would i walk away from this pile so turning it a couple times as im04 was important for us right versus the three
1:00:43 it's like we just turned it once and it's like it wasn't like heating like where you stick your hand in it reheat but it's also a little less volume and but like you saying the dirt holds the heat better and the density like it's it's more of like a i mean there's more metal in it it's iron it's like aluminum all that like we're teaching the microbes how to use those earth materials and they're making it denser and denser and like of course they're going to heat it up and we're going to bend it but they're going to be like shape-shifting anyway because because we we
1:01:23 propagated them to to a trillion in that first stage then we mix those into the soil you know into this dirt mixture right that's the crazy part was um seeing how we put like that clay-like soil which was very compact and and and um even like very wet like drenched and now it's all very flacculated and like so fluffy yeah so it changed the structure from the soil completely in 3-4 days which is amazing super super quick
1:02:08 just yeah super quick like texture change texture change um yeah yeah like i'm trying to like compare but yeah if you could only feel and that's really like only thing you can do is like feel so well what did what did you feel like how i mean what how did it change i mean oh i mean no just to start with we had like it was heavier like denser and um and now it's really fluffy like like um like almost like a bagged like uh if you had a bag potting soil mix but without all like
1:02:55 the the pumice and the perlite and whatnot but it's just that very fluffy um easy to work with you know you don't have the little big clumps of uh anything it's it doesn't want to stick together like you can kind of hold it in your hand very kind of loosely and it won't i mean i'm sure once you add moisture to it it'll just compact like a a big ball but right now you know it's just like very easy to work with and um soft and uh feels amazing but also it really sticks to the skin right you can see there's like lots of like the production of these proteins glomalin like IMO 3
1:03:40 doesn't stick to your skin you can clean it off very easily and IMO 4 it creates a layer that kind of glues yeah but so fluffy fluffy fluffy it's like a nice warm bed and it started off as just clay like dirt and a little and half pretty good field soil right under my bananas yeah yeah that soil was very decent spilled soil but the the pit dirt was just like i mean if you imagine just uh any red dirt that's just this hard packed and um just yeah you know and it just when you
1:04:31 throw it just breaks up into bigger clumps you know almost like if you look at a mud like a dry lake it cracks and stuff so that's literally what it was so it's like nothing would ever I mean things will grow out of a very very terribly so but to see it from that to turn to that is nice where we took the soil only fern was growing on it nothing else fern and grass bad grass but mostly fern like only the fern can can tolerate that like i don't know if it doesn't have any oxygen in it but the high iron content like he was saying high aluminum yeah
1:05:12 yeah so there is this lady in brazil she's called anna prima vezzi she's a soil scientist doctor um she she died uh three or four years ago at 99 years old she's from austria and she has this small book that's um talks about indicators plant indicators and um she could identify many of these from like studying the soil and um the minerals in the soil and what plants like grow on those conditions so fern and sometimes a ferns she says it has a lot of aluminum content available and when the aluminum is like super available you don't have phosphorus
1:05:59 because yeah i don't know if you guys here have heard about the trophobiosis by um francis chabousseau it's this french guy and he talks about um so you have like the combination of minerals in the soil and it's kind of what like um this german chemist he that the minimum the barrel of the minimums yeah but so when you have one nutrient or mineral in excess then all the other ones um are not balanced at all so you can have so it's like yeah you have i don't know excess aluminum but it's not only the excess of aluminum the phosphorus is completely
1:06:48 unavailable in the soil yeah he's like it'll lock it out like certain minerals gonna get a lock out so so if you look at my soil it's almost like this is my understanding i'm not 100 sure on this but i was told by a university scientist this is my recollection years later is that our soils are super high in phosphorus but because it has this aluminum lockout where it's like the plants exhibit this this symptom of no phosphorus where they'll sprout like like if i just take a lettuce and just put it out into the soil it would sprout and then it would never get past its thing and it can't put
1:07:32 its life into it and it's and it's a phosphorus deficiency which is which is good way to use natural farming because there's phosphorus if i'm using a plant juice there's phosphorus if i'm using an amino acid like the fuel there's a phosphorus um component probably in the vinegar i i'm not 100 sure but all and then also i can put seawater and that's another phosphorus component that i can add to to get this unlocking right and also when you throw in fungi and bacteria they're going to feed the worms because fungi and bacteria are very good food sources for worms and the worms when they eat
1:08:16 they produce all these humic and fulvic acids and humic and fulvic acids they since they're acid it's like they have a negative polarity they will join with these aluminums and other bases in the soil and then they will retain it so the uh you have like aluminum humats and other types of base basic substances like a plus sign the positive ones they um join with the negative side of the force and then they all become one so that's the one way to like yeah you we you throw in imos and then that aluminum content is gonna become unavailable because of the humic
1:09:04 acids and then you have phosphorus available again yeah yeah so so these microbes are like chemists altering my like geochemists altering the soil properties to tie up things to make other things available to make the nutrients flow to make life come back to life and it's maybe just a slower process but what we can do is we can create these imos that are just like highly trained and then inoculate them into this area and then spray these nutrients onto them to be like, hey, here it is. And then these microbial geochemists somehow balance our soil, which in a way we didn't know how to,
1:09:45 but we just spray these natural components like a fish extract, a plant extract, a eggshell extract, a bone extract, biochar itself. and then these microbial geochemists are like i've been highly trained in this pile that pedro turned for me i graduated from pedro turn pile university i got an a plus it's one of the best universities in the entire galaxy yeah like i promise you i've been highly trained so um so anyway just let you guys know we're we're over a little bit on our office hour if you guys want to
1:10:22 continuing a little bonus maybe i wanted to hear from um both of you i i just as a question to answer um you know you're here youtube potentially 16 000 people potentially a million potentially a billion people uh what is your message to the world um go ahead I'm gonna quote you on this one yeah I think let nothing stop you from growing guys there might be many difficult situations and droughts in life
1:11:09 in general but we gotta stick to the why and not the hows so every time when it's difficult out there uh remember yourselves and ourselves why we're doing this and um make more resilient communities with um more abundance more food more health to everybody and um yeah share the love come to hawaii take a class from this guy it's freaking awesome i really recommend it and thanks everybody for for tuning in it has been a pleasure to be here in hawaii with drake um time of my life so thanks drake thanks ben yeah no thank you this
1:11:59 guy i'm gonna be like thinking of him for years to come him like re-revolutionizing brazil and Not completely the whole South American continent. But yeah, I could say just everyone put all over. Why fight? Just let's grow. Let's grow. And the good, the bad, and the ugly. But yeah, grow. If you're in Nova Scotia, go get some Lunenburg wine from the winery up there. From Dan and Heather. support a local family owned business and if you're in California go to Leah's Fruit Stand Fresh Picked Fruit and Flowers
1:12:44 where was she located if you're in Brazil look this guy up if you're on Hawaii come here go see Shay sing tonight up on the north end near Kona and then come see me in Arizona if you want. You don't have to, but you can if you'd like. But I'll teach you a lot. God bless. Long live the natural farmer. Be joyful. Be happy. Be happy. Thanks for tuning in. Thanks, you guys, for being here. Thanks to everyone around the world that makes this happen. Pure K&F Foundation. Quality Education. lift up the camera
1:13:31 a little bit here we got Master Cho up here hanging out in the office spirit of Master Cho hopefully we'll get continue his honor of his legacy and all that of just bringing good quality stuff to you and around the world inspiring you to go do this because what makes it good for us if you're in Louisiana go see Brittany I forgot Brittany how could I forget about you We're all teachers. We're all doing it. Engage. Do it. So, yeah, like a little... Cool. Aloha.